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Sectionalism Archive's avatar

Okay, first of all, the ancient world did not have “orgies”. There is zero evidence that the Dionysian Orgy involved any sort of sexual element, it was much more akin to something like the Germanic spear dance. Just want to throw that out there. Human sacrifice, like other forms of sacrifice, is ritualized slaughter and among the Indo-Europeans was generally performed on criminals, was captives, homosexuals, and other disreputable people. Also, it was not common, it was an extraordinary religious activity. I don’t see why you think it is significantly worse than certain practices Christians did like burning people at the stake.

> What then, to make of Pagan statues? At best, they are visual manifestations of a broken culture from misled people. At worst, they are straight up demonic […] By this point, Rome was well on its way to being Christianized. Why should its citizens tolerate the remnants of pagan society visible in their streets, in their temples, at their stadiums, etc?

Okay, so Early Christians WERE the ancient BLM, it’s just that you don’t believe in the core beliefs of BLM but do believe in the core beliefs of Christianity. Destroying works of art that they associated with an unwholesome past that had to be buried. Alienating people from their demon-worshipping ancestors. Also, defacing art is in some ways worse than destroying it entirely, because it is an act of deliberate mutilation. Pagans, who had no value placed on the crucifix, melted it down for gold and other materials, not to pwn the Christcucks. When a Christian bashes the nose off of Augustus or etches a crucifix into his skull, he is telling the whole world that Caesar lost, and Christ won.

> The art is symbolic of the mistreatment of Christians

Yes, and the statues of Columbus and Robert E. Lee and now Thomas Jefferson are symbolic of the mistreatment towards BIPOCs. You are literally explaining exactly why Christians were like the ancient BLM, and titling this the contrary. It would make sense for someone to want to destroy the martyrs of foreigners like Trayvon Martin, but to want to destroy the statues of the virtuous emperors and heroes of your ancestors is clearly a product of subversion. Either you must conclude that, or that Christians actually recognized themselves as a foreign para-society which writhed its way into the dying imperial core. Germanicus, for example, was a hero of Rome, not a persecutor of Christians. Do you think the Christians who vandalized his statue even knew who he was? Probably not. Maybe they didn’t even speak Latin... Many Greeklings and Jews among the Christians. They just saw him as a Caesar and hated him for it.

And why shouldn’t Romans persecute Christians, who you admit are diametrically opposed to Roman traditional culture and religion and want to set it on its head? While the Christians recruited prostitutes and tax collectors and criminals to their cause, the religiously pious and good-natured people stuck to their gods in the face of civilizational decadence.

> Almost nothing remains from the pre-Constantine (300) era artwork. Again, this is just what Ancient people did. But, you don’t hear about the widespread destruction of Christian artwork and relics (even when it occurs today).

Christians didn’t make any good artwork anyways. Also, this isn’t about the sanctity of art. I’m not the Pearl-clutching type over destroying artwork, it’s the motives behind it. Christians were obviously being encouraged to identify with the Israelites over their own ancestors, and to view their ancestors as akin to the enemies of the Israelites. So they were encouraged to destroy what remained of the world their ancestors built. They were also operating on heavy resentment for the people who had perfectly rational reasons not to like them in the past. It was an act of revenge just as BLM today seeks vengeance because we taught their ancestors to eat with a fork and knife. You see this later on too, among the Anglo-Saxons missionaries would paint Christian Anglos as Israelites and their ancestors as enemies of Israel.

The use of martyrdom to allegedly garner sympathy, gaining traction through gibs to the poor, and heavy in-group networking to bribe politicians and whatnot heavily are also things we see today as very Jewwy and left-Machiavellian. It’s not necessarily bad, you do what you have to do I guess, but it demonstrates that Christianity’s spread was not some sort of intellectual victory. They outplayed the Pagan religious strata who weren’t even playing at first at all because as you said, they were not as zealous. They had no immune system to protect against proselytizing religions. Also, they had to stave off other foreign cults and were literally going bankrupt by the late empire due to these religious changes.

And frankly, I am yet to see evidence that martyrdom actually played a large role in the spread of Christianity. It is clearly one of the stupidest things Christians do, literally asking to be killed. This is suicide by any other name. Maybe it played a small role but clearly these other factors like networking and charity to the poor were more impactful on society. To traditional societies, the greatest thing is heroic virtue, not martyrdom. They’re almost polar opposites.

> In fact, the coming Christian (Byzantine) empire surpassed the original (stagnant) Roman republic and empire in a few ways. For example, the Romans made essentially zero technological innovations during their millennia+ years of power.

The Romans probably came the closest of any culture in human history to industrializing before the English in the 1700s. Nobody before ~1500 made a lot of technological innovations so it’s very stupid to argue this. Byzantines will never be a real woman— I mean Roman! Btw. And they were scumbags.

>Nazis, Lenin etc

Destroying people who were obviously progressive and unique for their time is not the same as destroying people who were ordinary in their historical context.

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ManifestD's avatar

TLDR BLM co exist as surrogate religions and a lot of these traits are just evident in religious conflict writ-large. So a lot of these criticisms are really just “Christianity participated in a religious conflict with pagans!” and, yeah, no shit.

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